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MX transition
Posted 01 May 2002 15:15:22
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01 May 2002 15:15:22 enquest enquest1 posted:
Now that MX has PhP. What is the future for extensions. Will Tim Green (and others) update his intillicart and extensions to MX, Phakt, Impakt 1.2.8, Impakt 2.0? Nextension... How much more is coming.Will it be a nightmare to upgrade to MX? and still wanting to govern your old websites in the coming years?
Wouldn't it be a smart move for Interakt to make sure there extension would be compatible with the dreamweaver PhP. So that who write's an extension for MX will be able to use it also with Impakt 2.0? etc…
Questions questions...
Replies
Replied 01 May 2002 17:04:55
01 May 2002 17:04:55 Peter R replied:
I am anxiously waiting to hear about this also. I was pretty excited to hear about DMX and it's PHP support, but then my excitement dropped like a rock when I found that all my behaviours and extensions that need Phakt, won't work in DMX. That makes it pretty much impossible for me to upgrade. I depend very heavily on Phakt and it's extensions... and can't switch versions without them.
I guess I stupidly was dreaming of a perfect world where Macromedia would have done something for us who use Phakt, made it so that we could easily upgrade. Especially since Macromedia themselves recommended Phakt. MM should have just bought Phakt,ImpAKT etc. from Interakt.ro and used that as it's PHP server model.
Anyways, Tim you work with those at Interakt.ro don't you? Can you please let us know if they are planning on making their PHP products work with DMX? And if so, when could we expect them?
Oh and enquest had a good idea... I hope interakt.ro will make their products compatible with the default PHP server model in DMX so that Extensions that are built for DMX's PHP server model, will also work for Interakt's PHP server model.
Like I said, I can't live without Phakt/ImpAKT and the extensions built for them.
Here's hopin' everything works out... and quickly! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Peter
I guess I stupidly was dreaming of a perfect world where Macromedia would have done something for us who use Phakt, made it so that we could easily upgrade. Especially since Macromedia themselves recommended Phakt. MM should have just bought Phakt,ImpAKT etc. from Interakt.ro and used that as it's PHP server model.
Anyways, Tim you work with those at Interakt.ro don't you? Can you please let us know if they are planning on making their PHP products work with DMX? And if so, when could we expect them?
Oh and enquest had a good idea... I hope interakt.ro will make their products compatible with the default PHP server model in DMX so that Extensions that are built for DMX's PHP server model, will also work for Interakt's PHP server model.
Like I said, I can't live without Phakt/ImpAKT and the extensions built for them.
Here's hopin' everything works out... and quickly! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Peter
Replied 01 May 2002 20:27:48
01 May 2002 20:27:48 Tim Green replied:
Well, there has already been a press release about the announcement of PHAkT 2 for Dreamweaver MX, and you can take it from that there will also likely be an ImpAKT 2 as well.
I agree that the PHP Server Model implementation by Macromedia is lacking in a number of ways, but it is a start.
I do not know of any plans to combine PHAkT with the current DWMX PHP Server Model. To be honest, I don't think this will happen, as it would cause inevitable compatability issues, and to be honest, I think PHAkT is a massive work. Maintaining it, and updating it for DWMX isn't a small task, so I think the guys at Interakt will be pretty busy for a while.
What about the other extensions, then? IntelliCART, and all of the other extensions available for PHAkT/ImpAKT? Well, I can't speak for the other developers. From my point of view, as a developer, I find the thought of 3 PHP Server Models (native DWMX,PHAkT & ImpAKT) more than I can bear. This might not be a reaction that you are all expecting, but from where I stand, the 3 different server models will be a bonus to flexibility for the user, but for the extension developer like me, this will be a nightmare to support.
At the moment, it is hard enough keeping one product IntelliCART compatable with both PHAkT and ImpAKT, as both of these server models, while cousins, do have their differences, which causes masses of problems for development.
Add to this the new DWMX Server Model, and it becomes impossible. As a developer I am left with the tough decision of deciding whether I will support all 3 PHP Server Models, or just one, the native PHP Server model in DWMX.
I feel, on a personal and professional level, that the only sensible thing to do is to enhance the existing DWMX PHP Server Model. For the first time, PHP Developers have a stable base to develop with. There won't be updates to download and install, every few weeks, that just might break all of your server behaviors.
If this means that I have to make the PHP/MySQL Server Model database independant, then that is what I will do. If it means that I have to spend hundreds of hours of development, I will do it, because I can do it for one server model.
If I have to make everything compatable to 3 PHP Server Models, then the time I can dedicate is divided into 3 and this really makes no sense at all.
Anyway, I welcome any comments, but promise to support the DW PHP Community throughout.
As a final word, I should point out, that my support of PHAkT and ImpAKT for UD4 will remain constant.
I completely understand Interakt's reasons for developing PHAkT 2 and ImpAKT 2, and don't blame them at all for wanting to provide more to the PHP Developer. I will help them in their endeavours as much as I am physically able. I just won't be developing extensions for these server models.
I hope you all understand.
All the best
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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I agree that the PHP Server Model implementation by Macromedia is lacking in a number of ways, but it is a start.
I do not know of any plans to combine PHAkT with the current DWMX PHP Server Model. To be honest, I don't think this will happen, as it would cause inevitable compatability issues, and to be honest, I think PHAkT is a massive work. Maintaining it, and updating it for DWMX isn't a small task, so I think the guys at Interakt will be pretty busy for a while.
What about the other extensions, then? IntelliCART, and all of the other extensions available for PHAkT/ImpAKT? Well, I can't speak for the other developers. From my point of view, as a developer, I find the thought of 3 PHP Server Models (native DWMX,PHAkT & ImpAKT) more than I can bear. This might not be a reaction that you are all expecting, but from where I stand, the 3 different server models will be a bonus to flexibility for the user, but for the extension developer like me, this will be a nightmare to support.
At the moment, it is hard enough keeping one product IntelliCART compatable with both PHAkT and ImpAKT, as both of these server models, while cousins, do have their differences, which causes masses of problems for development.
Add to this the new DWMX Server Model, and it becomes impossible. As a developer I am left with the tough decision of deciding whether I will support all 3 PHP Server Models, or just one, the native PHP Server model in DWMX.
I feel, on a personal and professional level, that the only sensible thing to do is to enhance the existing DWMX PHP Server Model. For the first time, PHP Developers have a stable base to develop with. There won't be updates to download and install, every few weeks, that just might break all of your server behaviors.
If this means that I have to make the PHP/MySQL Server Model database independant, then that is what I will do. If it means that I have to spend hundreds of hours of development, I will do it, because I can do it for one server model.
If I have to make everything compatable to 3 PHP Server Models, then the time I can dedicate is divided into 3 and this really makes no sense at all.
Anyway, I welcome any comments, but promise to support the DW PHP Community throughout.
As a final word, I should point out, that my support of PHAkT and ImpAKT for UD4 will remain constant.
I completely understand Interakt's reasons for developing PHAkT 2 and ImpAKT 2, and don't blame them at all for wanting to provide more to the PHP Developer. I will help them in their endeavours as much as I am physically able. I just won't be developing extensions for these server models.
I hope you all understand.
All the best
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Replied 01 May 2002 22:13:55
01 May 2002 22:13:55 Peter R replied:
I understand exactly what you mean, and don't blame you for picking just one server model. Even though I'm so dependant on Phakt, I think you're doing the right thing by choosing the DMX server model.
I think what would end my fears is if all the great extension developers would make one last great push to adapt as many of their existing extensions to DMX as possible, and then move on to using DMX's server model exclusively. But if no developers adapt their extensions, it really leaves us non-coders in a tough spot.
I wish I could say otherwise, but I'll never be able to code by hand. The ol' grey matter just doesn't work that way very well. I'm basically treading water in hopes we'll be able to hire a professional some day. <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good luck with all your work Tim, I know you'll probably be torn in a few directions in the near future.
Peter
I think what would end my fears is if all the great extension developers would make one last great push to adapt as many of their existing extensions to DMX as possible, and then move on to using DMX's server model exclusively. But if no developers adapt their extensions, it really leaves us non-coders in a tough spot.
I wish I could say otherwise, but I'll never be able to code by hand. The ol' grey matter just doesn't work that way very well. I'm basically treading water in hopes we'll be able to hire a professional some day. <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good luck with all your work Tim, I know you'll probably be torn in a few directions in the near future.
Peter
Replied 01 May 2002 23:32:06
01 May 2002 23:32:06 enquest enquest1 replied:
Maybe interakt should concentrate on Nextension for DMX. And drop Phakt and impakt for exeption extend it with support for more databases. Afterall most of us use MySql an PostegSQL. Who does use 12 databases? Those who do this probably hand code everthing...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
Replied 02 May 2002 00:51:51
02 May 2002 00:51:51 Tim Green replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think what would end my fears is if all the great extension developers would make one last great push to adapt as many of their existing extensions to DMX as possible, and then move on to using DMX's server model exclusively. But if no developers adapt their extensions, it really leaves us non-coders in a tough spot.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I will be converting all of my existing extensions over to the DWMX Server Model. This will have to be done in stages, to break down the development burden, but it will be done.
One of the first things that I will be doing will be to convert all of the Server Formats I developed for PHAkT into a DWMX PHP Format Pack.
I can't promise release dates, as yet due to other commitments, but it will happen. At least from my point of view.
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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I think what would end my fears is if all the great extension developers would make one last great push to adapt as many of their existing extensions to DMX as possible, and then move on to using DMX's server model exclusively. But if no developers adapt their extensions, it really leaves us non-coders in a tough spot.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I will be converting all of my existing extensions over to the DWMX Server Model. This will have to be done in stages, to break down the development burden, but it will be done.
One of the first things that I will be doing will be to convert all of the Server Formats I developed for PHAkT into a DWMX PHP Format Pack.
I can't promise release dates, as yet due to other commitments, but it will happen. At least from my point of view.
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Replied 02 May 2002 00:57:17
02 May 2002 00:57:17 Tim Green replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Maybe interakt should concentrate on Nextension for DMX. And drop Phakt and impakt for exeption extend it with support for more databases. Afterall most of us use MySql an PostegSQL. Who does use 12 databases? Those who do this probably hand code everthing...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I understand you, but don't necessarily agree with you, despite my comments previously. You have to take into account the sheer amount of work that has gone into creating PHAkT & ImpAKT. It is impossible for any company who have invested so much time and money into development, to simply throw away their investment.
Who knows how things will be in the future? We are all driven by market forces, and we have to react appropriately.
As for databases, well, if there was no need to use 12 databases, then the guys who write ADODB wouldn't have built in the support for 12. The truth is, we all have tasks that need to be accomplished. Some of us don't have the luxury of choosing our database as it gets mandated down from somewhere else.
I have used in the past Oracle, Informix and a couple of the other diverse databases, because I had to interface with legacy systems for particular contracts. So, it does happen, and again, while there is still the demand for it, it will still be there.
I appreciate your frustration, and hope that there is a satisfactory conclusion to your dilemma.
All the best
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Maybe interakt should concentrate on Nextension for DMX. And drop Phakt and impakt for exeption extend it with support for more databases. Afterall most of us use MySql an PostegSQL. Who does use 12 databases? Those who do this probably hand code everthing...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I understand you, but don't necessarily agree with you, despite my comments previously. You have to take into account the sheer amount of work that has gone into creating PHAkT & ImpAKT. It is impossible for any company who have invested so much time and money into development, to simply throw away their investment.
Who knows how things will be in the future? We are all driven by market forces, and we have to react appropriately.
As for databases, well, if there was no need to use 12 databases, then the guys who write ADODB wouldn't have built in the support for 12. The truth is, we all have tasks that need to be accomplished. Some of us don't have the luxury of choosing our database as it gets mandated down from somewhere else.
I have used in the past Oracle, Informix and a couple of the other diverse databases, because I had to interface with legacy systems for particular contracts. So, it does happen, and again, while there is still the demand for it, it will still be there.
I appreciate your frustration, and hope that there is a satisfactory conclusion to your dilemma.
All the best
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Replied 02 May 2002 14:30:35
02 May 2002 14:30:35 Interakt Online replied:
Hello,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Anyways, Tim you work with those at Interakt.ro don't you? Can you please let us know if they are planning on making their PHP products work with DMX? And if so, when could we expect them?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
PHAkt 2 has already entered a private beta, and will be released in the same day as Dreamweaver MX is.
We will also provide a migration engine (let's hope that you didn't modifyed your code by hand, because modifyed code is not upgradeable) from PHAkt1 and from PHP_MySQL (MX current PHP impleemntation) to our server model.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Like I said, I can't live without Phakt/ImpAKT and the extensions built for them.
Here's hopin' everything works out... and quickly! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I hope that our endeavours in making PHAkt 2 will be rewarded with users fidelity <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alexandru
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Anyways, Tim you work with those at Interakt.ro don't you? Can you please let us know if they are planning on making their PHP products work with DMX? And if so, when could we expect them?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
PHAkt 2 has already entered a private beta, and will be released in the same day as Dreamweaver MX is.
We will also provide a migration engine (let's hope that you didn't modifyed your code by hand, because modifyed code is not upgradeable) from PHAkt1 and from PHP_MySQL (MX current PHP impleemntation) to our server model.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Like I said, I can't live without Phakt/ImpAKT and the extensions built for them.
Here's hopin' everything works out... and quickly! <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I hope that our endeavours in making PHAkt 2 will be rewarded with users fidelity <img src=../images/dmxzone/forum/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alexandru
Replied 02 May 2002 14:33:51
02 May 2002 14:33:51 Interakt Online replied:
Hi Tim,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I will be converting all of my existing extensions over to the DWMX Server Model. This will have to be done in stages, to break down the development burden, but it will be done.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I am sad to hear that.
However, this is a side effect of the PHP support of Macromedia MX I've never thought of: loosing all extension developers which will stick with the original implementation.
However, I'll contact you personally to see if you agree to allow us to continue the development of your extensions with our products, as we intend to create a "third party extension packaged inside our products" development department.
Alexandru
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I will be converting all of my existing extensions over to the DWMX Server Model. This will have to be done in stages, to break down the development burden, but it will be done.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I am sad to hear that.
However, this is a side effect of the PHP support of Macromedia MX I've never thought of: loosing all extension developers which will stick with the original implementation.
However, I'll contact you personally to see if you agree to allow us to continue the development of your extensions with our products, as we intend to create a "third party extension packaged inside our products" development department.
Alexandru
Replied 02 May 2002 14:39:15
02 May 2002 14:39:15 Interakt Online replied:
Hello,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Maybe interakt should concentrate on Nextension for DMX. And drop Phakt and impakt for exeption extend it with support for more databases. Afterall most of us use MySql an PostegSQL. Who does use 12 databases? Those who do this probably hand code everthing...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
As Tim says, we can't do that. It would deny our whole effort of creating PHAkt.
So I think we are forced to create something that better, that will make the PHP support in MX be forgotter in the first place. And this new approach is tNG, a way of creating and reusing application logic in a more powerful way. Please stay tuned on our site for further details, we'll publish a detailed article soon.
However, we still think we'll retain a small part of the market, even if 80% of you are using MySQL. As people grow up, they tend to evolve to real databases, and I am sure they will always consider our solution in front of other's one.
Alexandru
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Maybe interakt should concentrate on Nextension for DMX. And drop Phakt and impakt for exeption extend it with support for more databases. Afterall most of us use MySql an PostegSQL. Who does use 12 databases? Those who do this probably hand code everthing...
This way there is only one server model. And give a lot less headaches for all of us...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
As Tim says, we can't do that. It would deny our whole effort of creating PHAkt.
So I think we are forced to create something that better, that will make the PHP support in MX be forgotter in the first place. And this new approach is tNG, a way of creating and reusing application logic in a more powerful way. Please stay tuned on our site for further details, we'll publish a detailed article soon.
However, we still think we'll retain a small part of the market, even if 80% of you are using MySQL. As people grow up, they tend to evolve to real databases, and I am sure they will always consider our solution in front of other's one.
Alexandru
Replied 02 May 2002 16:25:41
02 May 2002 16:25:41 Tim Green replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am sad to hear that.
However, this is a side effect of the PHP support of Macromedia MX I've never thought of: loosing all extension developers which will stick with the original implementation.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Perhaps you should have considered that first, as it is the extension developer supporting your products that has helped your business to grow.
You complained publicly because Macromedia offered you "No Support", and you threatened to cease development of PHAkT and ImpAKT due to this, but here you are doing exactly the same to other extension developers, like yourselves.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
However, I'll contact you personally to see if you agree to allow us to continue the development of your extensions with our products, as we intend to create a "third party extension packaged inside our products" development department.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Waiting until I had time to respond privately, before making your proposal public would have been nice.
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Edited by - rawveg on 02 May 2002 16:27:02
Edited by - rawveg on 02 May 2002 16:28:02
I am sad to hear that.
However, this is a side effect of the PHP support of Macromedia MX I've never thought of: loosing all extension developers which will stick with the original implementation.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Perhaps you should have considered that first, as it is the extension developer supporting your products that has helped your business to grow.
You complained publicly because Macromedia offered you "No Support", and you threatened to cease development of PHAkT and ImpAKT due to this, but here you are doing exactly the same to other extension developers, like yourselves.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
However, I'll contact you personally to see if you agree to allow us to continue the development of your extensions with our products, as we intend to create a "third party extension packaged inside our products" development department.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Waiting until I had time to respond privately, before making your proposal public would have been nice.
Tim Green
Extension & PHP TalkZone Manager
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Edited by - rawveg on 02 May 2002 16:27:02
Edited by - rawveg on 02 May 2002 16:28:02